Interview: OPERATION AVALANCHE Director and Star Matt Johnson

By Michael Haffner | October 4, 2016

Matt Johnson’s films could almost be described as half-truths or honest lies. They purposefully blur the line between fiction and non-fiction in such a fascinating way that you are never quite sure where the lie begins or ends. So it makes sense that my discussion with the young actor and director would include discussing the classic Orson Welles film F FOR FAKE and why he enjoys injecting truths into stories… or maybe it’s the other way around.

After the controversial but film festival favorite THE DIRTIES showcased the director roaming the halls of a real high school with his partner Owen Williams, Matt Johnson decided to use his unique storytelling style to venture to a new distant place and era. OPERATION AVALANCHE follows a group of CIA paper pushers as they attempt to orchestrate possibly the greatest hoax in human history: the 1969 moon landing. The group’s mission quickly goes from impossible to dangerous when some mysterious figures seem determined to put an end to the secret project. Comprised of “archival footage filmed during the 1960s,” OPERATION AVALANCHE is a unique film that is now playing in select theaters and opens in St. Louis on Friday. Look for my review then, but for now, enjoy my interview with the candid director.

 

We Are Movie Geeks: I feel like many of us go through a period of time when we suddenly become really interested in conspiracy theories. When did you first become interested in the fake moon conspiracy and did the documentary ROOM 237 and one of its stories about Stanley Kubrick directing the fake landing have anything to do with it?

MATT JOHNSON: That documentary was definitely an influence, but I think I was more interested in the moon landing as a kid than as an adult. I saw ROOM 237 at TIFF and thought “Wow! This is amazing.” I think it reminded me of how interested I was in that conspiracy story. But I didn’t think I would make a movie about it until much later when THE DIRTIES finished and I was thinking about what film to make next. I wanted to make a historical film – about some famous moment in history. When my producer (Matt Miller) and I stumbled on the fake moon landing as a story premise, we knew we had to do it.

I like conspiracies. One of my favorite movies is JFK. But I’m not really a conspiracy-head. I just love the stories. I think they are amazing.

 

WAMG: There’s a meta element to the film where you have art imitating life, which is essentially the main idea behind filmmaking. You’ve explored this with THE DIRTIES and now with OPERATION AVALANCHE where it sort of blurs what’s real and what’s not. What about this style of filmmaking interests you? Because you aren’t making a “documentary,” but you aren’t making an entirely fictional film since you are incorporating real moments with real people.

MJ: I’ll tell you what I like about it: you can do things that Hollywood movies or even just bigger budget movies could never do. I’m not saying “could never do” because they don’t want to do them, but “could never do” because the restrictions put on them make it impossible. Say for instance the car chase scene. You would never see that in a bigger budget film because they couldn’t take the risks with their actors that we can take. Those scenes where we are talking with real NASA staff and they are responding to us as real people (the crew posed as “documentarians” and got into NASA), you could never see that in a bigger budget movie. Those would be paid actors and that would be a set, not the real NASA building.

So, apart from it being quite frugal shooting in this style, we get paid off in really amazing ways and we get to do things that haven’t been done in mainstream movies. That’s why I’m interested in this. It’s not to say I will always make movies like this, but I think we have discovered some new territory telling stories in independent filmmaking.

 

WAMG: And have you ever had an interest in making a straight documentary? Are you intrigued at all in capturing reality and telling that style of story?

MJ: Of course it does, but what’s interesting to me is perverting that into some kind of narrative story. I think one day I will make a documentary because, frankly, I think it will be much easier than the stupid stuff we’re trying to do. But for now, I like taking as much from that aesthetic as I can and applying it to fiction. This is only my second movie, so I have got some ways to go before I really know what I’m doing.

 

WAMG: That’s true. You have some time.

Between the sets, costumes, locations, and songs, you have exhausted a lot of effort to make OPERATION AVALANCHE look as accurate to the period as possible. What was the hardest aspect of recreating this period of time?

MJ: From a production point of view, it was definitely finding environments that would pass as the 1960s. With THE DIRTIES, we could shoot anywhere we wanted – the world was our oyster. Here we had to be so specific. We were shooting in old universities and studios that were basically derelict. We had to find places that looked like they were still active but had the sense of the 1960s. It was really really hard.

I would say though that the biggest challenge was recreating that section with Stanley Kubrick. That took months and months and months.

 

 

WAMG: How long did the shoot take overall?

MJ: We shot for 30 days one summer and then edited for a few months and then shot another 30-40 days over a mixed amount of time. We basically had a documentary production schedule where we shot for many many days not sequentially.

 

WAMG: At this point did you have investors already or were you shooting out of pocket?

MJ: We had a loan from a Canadian bank that was funding us based on a negative pick-up deal that Lionsgate made with us quite early on.

 

WAMG: That’s interesting. Is that how you did THE DIRTIES as well?

MJ: No. THE DIRTIES was made for $10,000 and I just paid for it myself.

 

WAMG: Oh wow!

When your character in the film starts to direct the “moon film” he has this sort of manic, jovial spirit. He becomes an enthusiastic larger than life, much like Orson Welles. Is that how you really are on set with your own films and were you influenced by anyone in particular for this character?

MJ: Orson Welles is a hero of mine and this film is very much influenced by his film F FOR FAKE.

 

WAMG: Yeah, I can see that.

MJ: I will say that the way I act in this movie is how I am in real life, especially with directing things. Now, I couldn’t tell you because I’m not self-aware enough if I have stolen any of that behavior from Orson Welles. I’ve never actually seen footage of him directing, so I’m not sure if he acts like that. For me, when I see myself acting that way, I see myself acting like a kid. I feel like I’m hanging out with my brother and we’re just yelling. It’s not really an impression of anyone. I’m just being myself.

 

WAMG: Was there any real tension on set while making OPERATION AVALANCHE? You obviously have the fake tension “on-set” which becomes integral to the plot of the film. Did any of those problems spill over?

MJ: Most of the stuff you see between me and the other actors is really coming from what we were feeling. A lot of that shoot was stressful since we were sneaking into places, working with a script that was not finished, and a lot of really frustrating things that happened. It was the same with THE DIRTIES. Much of that was more or less based from reality.

 

WAMG: So you just had an outline? You didn’t have any dialogue written?

MJ: Exactly. We had no dialogue written. It was just like THE DIRTIES. We were just making things up as we went along.

 

WAMG: Was that hard later in the editing room-

MJ: It was impossible!

 

 

WAMG: You include a lot of Kubrick posters in the background throughout the film and so it seems like you are clearly a fan of his work. Aside from all of the stuff that all film historians speak about regarding his work, is there anything about his films and his style that interests you?

MJ: It’s funny because both myself in real life and my character in the film only really love DR. STRANGELOVE. The other Kubrick films I don’t completely love. I think they are really cold and overly technical.

 

WAMG: That’s exactly how I feel about THE SHINING. I’ve never connected with that film like so many have.

MJ: Which is funny because OPERATION AVALANCHE is really technical and it sort of bears some of the same bad behavior that Kubrick has. But that’s not to say that I don’t respect him and think that he’s a master. I think DR. STRANGELOVE is one of the greatest movies ever made. What draws me to that is that he’s able to combine really light and easy performances with unbelievable technical rigor. Like Peter Sellers acting like he’s almost making up what he’s saying as he’s going while you’re watching these sets and these very specific camera setups is so amazing to me. It’s a huge inspiration for me. As a filmmaker, you can spend tons of energy making sure everything is perfect, but in terms of performances, you can just let people go.

 

WAMG: In regards to the moon landing – because there are some people who believe that it is a hoax – do you think it’s healthier that our country believes “the lie” if it is in fact a lie, or is it better to uncover the truth? Also, do you think there is any truth to the conspiracy?

MJ: No. I can guarantee there is absolutely no truth to it (the conspiracy). And I’m a good authority on this since I did try to fake the moon landing with my friends. There are a lot of really, really specific reasons why, especially considering video technology.

But the more interesting question you asked there is it better if Americans believe it was faked or not. That’s really interesting. I’ve never been asked that. In the movie INTERSTELLAR they play with that a little bit. I hate that movie–

 

WAMG: You’re not the only one.

MJ: But they talk about the history of America and how it was more useful in that dust world to say that the moon landing was faked so that people didn’t think that American opulence in the 60s had run amok. I don’t know about that. Now, I’m not an American, but I actually think having a few major accomplishments as a uniting force is quite good. I don’t think it would be good if it was faked. Let’s say if it was faked, then I think it would be worse if the world knew.

 

WAMG: Finally, what are some film projects you have lined up for the near future?

MJ: There are two movies we’re going to make. One is about a time machine and the other is the third film in this Matt and Owen trilogy where they get in over their heads. We’re going to make both of those movies but one of them is going to start early 2018.

 

 

OPERATION AVALANCHE is now playing in limited release and opens in St. Louis on Friday, October 7th.